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Casual Hoya

Inside Edition: Former Player Looks Back to the Beginning of the Georgetown-Syracuse Rivalry

Former John Thompson Jr. player "Bashful" takes a look back to the beginning of the Georgetown-Syracuse Rivalry:

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Like any red-blooded Hoya, the thought of that team dressed in Orange incites me now. But as a veteran of the Hoya Program from the 1970s, I have to say it wasn't really a rivalry back then, but had great potential. Now, with the Big East membership of Syracuse fast approaching an end it might be worthwhile to reflect on that rivalry from when it began-in the 1970s.

A look back after The Jump:

Star-divide

The first time GU played the then named Orangemen in that decade and the only time during my years at Georgetown, was in 1974 at the Kodak Christmas tournament in Rochester, New York. Rochester is not the greatest place to spend the week between Christmas and New Years but if you like basketball, it did provide some good games back in the day. The 1974-1975 version of the Orangemen were a good team that eventually made it to the Final Four in San Diego-the first Final Four in the school's history. But like a precursor to future disappointments for Syracuse, their schedule included a game with a then unheralded catholic school from DC in the opening round of a Christmas tournament in upstate NY that they were supposed to roll through.

Unfortunately for the Orangemen, that little known Hoyas team was on its way to its first NCAA tournament bid since 1943. The Syracuse team was led by 6'9" senior Rudy Hackett, a lightning fast point guard named Bug Williams and a good shooter named Jimmy Lee. They also had a large center named Ernie Siebert and let's just say that the adjective large may be kind to Ernie, who at 6'9" was listed at 260 lbs but looked like he was a lot heavier than that. Georgetown at the time was both tall-for the 1970s and for now. The front line was Merlin Wilson (6'9"), Bill Lynn (6'11"), and Ed Hopkins (6'9"). The backcourt had Jon Smith and Derrick Jackson, both who were offensive powerhouses, and one of the better defensive guards in GU history, Mike Riley. What ensued was a terrific game in which the Hoyas used their quickness, size and a great press to offset the hometown refereeing and take home a 71-70 Christmas present against the Orangemen.

There were three other games in the 1970s against Syracuse that helped the rivalry flourish - and all were Hoya wins. In 1979, the last season of our membership in the ECAC format of playoffs, the Hoyas beat the Orangemen, then ranked 6th in the country at the time, in the ECAC Upstate/South final to get the NCAA tournament bid at the Cole Field House, 66-58. The next year was the opening year of the Big East conference. What a year for college basketball and for Georgetown. For Syracuse, not so much. First the Hoyas knocked off their rivals (ranked #2) in the last game at Manley Field House, 52-50 in February. Then they took the first Big East tournament championship from the then # 3 ranked Orangemen 87-81 in Providence.

The 70s laid a great foundation for the rivalry over the next 30+ years. But now unfortunately due to Orange chasing green, it is either ending or reverting to a 1970s-and-before mode. Sure, we may get the occasional non-league games, but they will lack the punch of regular conference combat. The game on Wednesday night in the Carrier Dome will be tough. This version of Orange is a team that is equally as tall as ours and has more experience. But if history can inspire the Hoyas to beat a highly ranked and regarded Syracuse team, they need look no further than the Hoya squads of JT Jr. in the 1970s!

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Comments

Where you rather spend eternity? Cocytus or syracuse, New York? ...oh wait, they're the same place.

#jokesthat0%ofcusegradsunderstandwithoutexcessivegoogling

Aw I was waiting for the punchline

in which John Thompson pronounces, “Manley Field House is officially closed.” That’s the best part of this great bedtime story!

Nice article

you don’t hear much about the games before the Manley Field House is officially closed game.

agreed

growing up i remember the 80s and up, so this perspective is a valuable one.

You don't want to know

about the Hoyas in the mid-1960’s, when I was there. We gave our first athletic scholarship to an African-American (Bernie White) in 1964!

Henry Sims named to the BE honor roll

congrats Hank!

with hate week underway...

Can we all make a unilateral blog decision to ignore long trolling cuse posts?

Trying to correct their feeble logic and erroneous arguments might seem tempting, but its like trying to teach an average monkey sign language: you can see that tiny glimmer of intelligence in its eyes, but you need to come to grips with the fact that it is subhuman in nature, and will never truly learn.

While that's usually a good rule

There’s some acceptable smack talk going on in that “Things that make me happy” thread that a Cuse fan posted.

dukepettyjohn

proving my point about subhuman intelligence below.

I think he's overachieving, actually...

for a Cuse grad (presumably). The last one I spoke with really struggled with basic arithmetic.

At least you guys can spell "arithmetic."

The WVU fans insist that there is no “a” at the beginning of it.

Don't let the WVU fans hear you say that

Pretty thin-skinned, in addition to the lack of teeth, we’ve found.

Are they choosing one representative troll to send over for us to vanquish each day?

It feels like we’re playing Scott Pilgrim vs. The Orange.

I'm not leaving until Wednesday night.
Then read it and weep!
The Syracuse loving Mrs. BBFITB to be and I got a very casual G'town/Cuse cornhole set this weekend

Was a gift at her bridal shower from some of her friends and is pretty badass actually. If I had any idea how to upload a picture from my iPhone on this site, I’d document accordingly. Anybody that actually paid attention in M.I.S, hook a brother up.

Between what I’m afraid will happen on Wednesday night and my casual “stag-do” coming up this weekend at the Hard Rock with the Crue, I’m not so sure as to the next time I’ll actually speak with her, if ever. So she’ll at least have this cornhole set to remember me by. As will, hopefully, all of you.

Cornhole is the best

I made a sweet Gtown set of boards by hand a couple years back, and bought blue/grey bags to go with it. Then my friends and I were enjoying a few beverages while playing in a Burleith alley, and we forgot to take the set inside when we left, and it disappeared. Pretty sure the cranky Burleith neighbors took it. Tragic.

send any and all documentation to casualhoya@gmail.com

gratzi

Man I hate Syracuse Fans!

They are the worst people in the world.

Their ignorance is so infuriating.

They’re still super pissed about the Gray Out last year. They cannot get it through their thick heads that there was nothing wrong with this practice, nor were they the team that we employed it on first. We did it first against Duke. We did it for Nova this year(although not to the same extent.)

Do not read their message boards their stupidity will just piss you off. They’re stupider than Fab Melo.

Yeah, that Grey Out worked great too.

You should do that every year.

if we had our PG

we would’ve beaten you just like we did up at the dome last year.

Could Bashful possibly be...

Craig Esherick? Former JT2 player- states that he was at Georgetown in the ‘74-’75 season. Taking a quick look at the HoyaSaxa.com roster for that year:

10 Craig Esherick
12 Mike Riley
14 Bill Lynn
20 Emmet Fitzgerald
22 Derrick Jackson
24 Bill Thomas
30 Jonathan Smith
32 Larry Long
34 Mike MacDermott
40 Greg Brooks
42 Felix Yeoman
44 Merlin Wilson
52 Ed Hopkins

If so

One could say that CasualHoya Hire[d] Esherick

Well-played, Sir!

:-)

If Syracuse schadenfruede is your thing

This is the shortest, most satisfying tidbit you’ll read today.

You were saying...

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/2/6/2775878/allen-iverson-puerto-rico-contract

what's your point?

Jonny Flynn is just another in a long line of underperforming Cuse pros … he’s the NBA’s equivalent of Kid Ray.

AI is nearing 37 years old, was an 11-time All-Star, MVP, multi-season scoring champ….not sure what jonny flynn sucking has to do with AI trying to make some cash at the end of his illustrious career. But that is Syracuse logic for you.

Oh I'm sorry, is it a bad thing when two playoff teams are trying to trade for you?

And I hear the Puerto Rican League pays great.

If Johnny Flynn is getting offers from anywhere

at 37, then we can talk about these stories in parallel. At Flynn’s age, if Iverson was on the market, every team in basketball would’ve wanted him.

Jonny will be smart enough to manage what he does make while he's in the NBA so he doesn't have to in Puerto Rico when he's 37
*play
A syracuse player and smart do not belong in the same sentence

unless the word not is right before smart.

We're talking about Allen Iverson here. Not exactly the model for Georgetown's academic superiority.

Dude struggles to put a complete sentence together.

“We talkin’ ’bout practice.”

Crafty redirection of the discussion

from basketball ability to intellect, since we all know Flynn is no Iverson.

Is Jonny Flynn a paragon of academia? Honest attempt to get beyond my assumptions about the players and students of your fine Canadian university, since I have no idea what he is like as a person.

Iverson was a great player. Flynn isn't on Iverson's level.

I’m not debating that. You, or rather another Hoya fan, thought it was funny that the Lakers and Knicks wanted to acquire Flynn. I don’t see how that negatively reflects on Flynn’s basketball abilities.

As for Iverson, I found it humorous that a former NBA MVP and convicted felon who made tens of millions of dollars in the NBA was at the point in his life where he had to go play in Puerto Rico to make money.

I don’t know how intelligent Jonny Flynn. Just like I don’t know how intelligent Allen Iverson is. I do know that Jonny Flynn is more articulate than Allen Iverson.

This is a bit of a leap in reading comprehension

so follow me closely here:

Lakers and Knicks are playoff teams. These teams, who are styled as contenders for the NBA championship, are facing such a dearth of available talent at the PG position that they are looking to acquire a guy who averages some three points, one rebound, and two assists per game.

And he’s a Cuse alum! /rimshot

and he's be on his third team in his third year

after being a top 6 pick. LOL. fail.

we do know how intelligent Jonny Flynn is...

he is an imbecile:

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/06/ncaa_penalizing_syracuse_unive.html

relevant excerpt:

The Syracuse men’s basketball team scored a 912 on the most recent APR. The NCAA’s cutline is 925. Colorado was the only other major conference school with a men’s basketball program under the NCAA’s minimum. Colorado’s football program also failed to meet the APR’s standard.

Syracuse’s poor academic performance came mainly as a result of three players; Jonny Flynn, Eric Devendorf and Paul Harris, leaving the school after the 2008-09 season despite having eligibility remaining. Schools lose points when student-athletes leave school in poor academic standing.

Because he decided to go pro instead of finishing a semester of school?
yeah, reading comp fail.

my bad.

Oh, don't own that

It’s his bad, again:

Schools lose points when student-athletes leave school in poor academic standing.

Emphasis mine, to make it easy on you.

Draft entry deadline is in mid April.

If you enter the draft, you can either go to workout for teams or finish the spring semester. They did not finish the spring semester.

Fair point

If that’s the reason for his poor standing, then I retract that particular bit of snark. Don’t really have a way to look into that, though.

Weird

So how do players that go pro EVER graduate college using your logic?

They go back and finish in the summer generally.

Or in UConn’s case, you give Kemba Walker internship credits for going to training camp.

Maybe true of schools like Syracuse and UConn. But at Georgetown, when you leave as a senior, you have your diploma and have accumulated all your necessary credits.

ie. Freeman and Wright – both of whom participated in camps AND still graduated on time as seniors.

I'm pretty sure all of Syracuse's seniors have graduated.

The guys you are referring to are juniors and sophomores.

But that’s the question:

If what you’re saying is correct, that most players who want to workout for NBA teams don’t go to class, then there shouldn’t be a difference between seniors, juniors and sophomores. Senior wouldn’t graduate because they wouldn’t finish their last quarter/semester of school. Juniors/Sophomores wouldn’t be eligible to become seniors/juniors.

My point is that this isn’t a general problem. It is a problem for schools who have players that care more about themselves than the program. Players that couldn’t be bothered to attend class after making the decision they were leaving, despite the ramifications on the program. And that is a reflection of the head coach.

You have to make a distinction with seniors though.

They do not have to enter by the mid April deadline. They do not have a three week window to workout with team’s and decide whether to stay in the draft. So they are able to finish out the semester and graduate.

The main issue is that the three week period encompasses the weeks leading up and during finals for most schools. Underclassmen who want to workout with as many teams prior to the withdrawal deadline often sacrifice academics to get reviews from NBA teams.

Fair. But then players that withdraw from the draft and return to school wouldn’t be eligible to play the next year.

I get taking summer classes but most players do that anyway.

Alright this has been exhausted. Cuse sucks.

And its 8:33 and Georgetown still sucks
Your argument has some merit

But players leave early from lots of schools, and not all of them have terrible APRs. That means that some of these kids (presumably, a lot of them) enter the draft, go to camps, but still manage to finish out the spring semester.

Yeah, but Syracuse had 4 in two seasons.

Plus a guy who quit the team a semester short of graduating.

Losing 1 or even 2 guys who don’t finish the semester won’t tank your APR. It takes multiple years with multiple guys leaving early to do it.

wrong. players leave but aren't in poor standing frequently

from lots of schools. Syracuse doesn’t have a uniquely large number of early entrants (see: UK, UNC for example).

at other schools, they either finish the spring semester, or set up their schedules so that they wouldn’t hurt the school’s API like that. ‘Cuse players didn’t.

Jeff Green an Dajuan Summers

Both left Georgetown Early and both left in good academic standing finishing out their semesters of work. Stop making excuses.

YOU CAN’T SPELL SUCKS! WITHOUT SU!

Syracuse sucks always! I would call Syracuse fans human garbage but I’m not sure they’re human.

How about Hollis?

He’s graduating early. And not from “the Harvard of Central New York”.

I don't think that shows that he is dumb

Rather it shows the type of respect Syracuse players have for the program and coach.

Perhaps.

Although with the randomness of the withdrawal date for the NBA Draft, players are basically forced to choose either to workout with teams or finish the semester academically.

If that were the case, why are Cuse and Colorado the only schools to get docked scholarships? Not like either are sending 5 players to the NBA every year.

3 guys left early that year.

Donte Greene left early the year before. And Josh Wright quit the team a semester short of graduating the year before because he’s an idiot.

Point of procedural inquiry

Is the argument over when we hit the event horizon and can only fit a single character in the reply box?

Sounds about right.

Or we can start another topic below about how you have some of the most fair-weather fans in the whole conference

Not thrilled about that

Kind of boils down to the fact that Georgetown draws a more diverse student body then Cuse. Tough to pack a house when the majority of your alumni are well outside the metro area of your arena.

Feel like we’ve had these chats before?

Georgetown has enough alums in the DMV area to fill the phone booth 3 times over

There’s no excuse for us to take it over every year (except when you sabotage our ticket buying abilities).

Source?
I lived in DC for 4 years.

I met a lot of Georgetown alums. No specific source. Just a lot of people who didn’t care about their school’s basketball team.

The late 90's, until JTIII, were a lost time

The young alumni from that era had nothing to get excited about, and winning fans back after graduation isn’t the easiest. Plenty of recent grads do go to the games now. As for the students…well, four of our home Big East games were over Christmas break. That sucked.

that's just a factually untrue statement.
Remember

AI’s conviction was overturned by a Court of Appeals.

And Devendorf never faced criminal charges for "hitting a girl"
What was the the technical term?

Closed-fist slap?

I think he "pushed her face with his palm"
Who is on AI's level?

I can only name a few guys who actually invented a shot, but AI is one of them – the running floater in the lane. The others were George Mikan and Kareem.

I forget who introduced the jump shot in the 1940’s. Pretty sure it was an NBA guy. I know it was before Bob Cousy.

BTW, there a lot of sad stories of pro athletes who couldn’t hang on to their money. The saddest of all were Jim Thorpe (booze), Josh Gibson (depression), and Big Daddy Lipscomb (smack). The Jim Thorpe story is a great, great movie, starring Burt Lancaster, late ‘40-s-early’50’s..

AI is not unique in that regard.

But its surprising that someone who went to the “academic powerhouse” that is Georgetown mismanaged tens of millions of dollars

cmon. name one schools without such a story
There are tons. But most of those schools don't push their academic prowess at every opportunity
I'm perfectly fine...

…with you ’talkin ’bout a player that left Georgetown nearly 17 years ago and happens to be one of the most exciting point guards to ever play the game.

If this is your best rivalry banter then this is going to be a very easy week.

What's rivalry banter if we can't bring up players from the past?

If your best banter is 17 years dated then I’m going to have to hit snooze and wait for the Nova game to have more fun with opposing fans.

Come on, there’s gotta be more you can play.

What's the statute of limitations on banter then?

2005? 2010? This season?

Good point

Guess I have to hand it to Syracuse and its Athletic Department for constantly giving opposing fans new material.

Damn Georgetown, its academic integrity and institutional control of athletes.

And its continued deterioration of a once successful basketball program
what, exactly has Syracuse won since 2003?

Realize you have that on us, but don’t act like you guys are making the second weekend of the NCAA every year. Go make some more t-shirts celebrating pointless bullshit.

We're trending up.

You, on the other hand, are not.

Assistant coaches molesting little boys.

“trending up.”

You heard it here first.

Kevin Broadus is a really respectable assistant coach in his own right.
Assistant coaches molesting little boys in the carrier dome.

“No worse than NCAA violations after leaving the school”

You heard it here first.

Eek

I worry for you if you think those two are even remotely comparable.

After this discussion tonight, I think it is fair to state Syracuse has the most embarrassing athletic program in the country. In the past few years, there have been problems with academics, assaults, alleged coverups, and whatever you want to call the Bernie/Laurie Fine stuff.

In the past 5 years, Syracuse has sent the same number of players to the NBA as they have had charged with assaulting female students.

This all is leaving out problems with the football program too. Throw that in and you can add drugs, theft and more assaults to the rap sheet.

Stay proud Oranges.

shockingly, haven't seen a follow up to this one

Well done

I'm not defending Bernie, at all. Nobody is gonna defend what he did.

But Broadus ran a goddamn prison system up in Binghamton. Internationally-wanted felons, drug dealers, etc.

Banter is part of thde deal on this blog. Folks who can’t take the heat should play solitaire.

bad redirect. poor form and racially problematic.

and dangerously plays too close to the white intellectual superiority form of racism. not a good look at all. further, AI doesn’t have any problems speaking. We talkin’ bout practice is a complete sentence within the black vernacular. If that’s not a legit sentence to you, 95% of basketball players, HS, NCAA, and NBA don’t speak in legit sentences.

also, georgetown’s API is fine. Syracuse’s would have had them miss the NCAA tournament if Duncan’s proposal were accepted.

finally, eric devendorf. trump card played.

I didn't redirect to intellect. "hoyasincebirth" did the post before mine.

But let’s not travel down this road.

you spoke about a specific player.

he just called syracuse players as a group dumb.

also, eric devendorf.

Touche.

And believe it or not, Eric Devendorf was once named a Scholar Athlete at SU.

Uh oh...

You do realize Devendorf never graduated, right?

So Syracuse’s Scholar Athlete never graduated Syracuse.

I believe that distinction says more about your standards

than it does about his academic prowess

Believe me, it stunned me more than it stuns you.
just like Derrick Coleman, ehh?

yeah, we can play the athlete-who-didn’t-spend-their-money-properly card, but it goes both ways.

Like Dikembe's little conflict mineral investment?
He got swindled in an investment

Let me know when Derrick Coleman is mentioned in a State of the Union speech for his philanthropic efforts

i did say it goes both ways.
It wouldn't be proper banter if I neglected to mention the other side, as you said.
Seems to me 'Lonzo had a pretty good season with the Heat at 39

and after a kidney transplant!

UConn getting crushed by Louisville
I'd use "embarassed"
And that was a few minutes ago.

It’s only gotten more bloody since you said that…ouch

Embarrassing...

UConn looks dire. I think at this point in the season, this is good for us since 1) we beat Louisville on the road and 2) this UConn team isn’t worth holding out any hope for. No Kemba to save them. Oriakhi is the only one playing with pride.

Shabazz Napier

What in the hell happened to him? He’s looked awful.

Too much pressure

trying to live up to that awesome name, probably.

Glad that's over

If getting berated by some Georgetown students left Calhoun bedridden, he might be in traction after that game

Any chance that DePaul beats Marquette?
Currently up 9

And in all fairness, it’s at least a legitimate rivalry.

You'd better believe that's a rivalry - goes way back, too

I’m from Chicago. They had a bunch of duke-outs in the 1970’s.

totally off subject

but, isn’t it a bit ironic that my beloved knicks who are probably dumbest organization in professional basketball started a backcourt tonight with a grad of Harvard, jeremy lin and stanford, Landry Fields.

No offense, since you like the Knicks

But I couldn’t love it more that Carmelo absolutely sucks and is single handedly ruining that team. Apologies, Sleepy.

I am a "knicks fan," in the sense that I'm a rangers fan and they play in the same building.

And melo’s performance over the past few weeks have me giddy.

Melo is a beast but Jeremy Lin??

Blueprint….

I was trying to make the point that I actually hate melo more than I like the knicks. but i'm tired and not even sure who's being sarcastic at this point.
Tired of hearing Cuse fans talk crap

Can’t freaking wait till Wednesday

yes these replies and surreplies going all the way to the right margin

are irritating. I hope we punch those cheaters in the mouth

Paging Jabril...
BTW -

Could Otto Porter be the new David Graham?

Sorry

I meant Michael Graham.

No, he actually knows how to play basketball.

He’s not just a hired thug.

So much for upholding...

your Jesuit principles.

Pretty sure there's something in the Bible

About smiting hip and thigh. I think that applies here.

Mark 11:14

Something about smiting a fruit tree because it displeased the Lord.

For 8 years in HS and college, the Jesuits taught me the value of competition.
And yet you chose to root for an uncompetitive basketball team
he roots for DePaul?

because I know a ‘Cuse fan isn’t calling Georgetown uncompetitive considering we’ve been to the more recent final four and are 3-3 against you in the past 3 years when we were “uncompetitive.”

DePaul's Vincentian

Just for the record.

knew i should have gone with marquette

but i’m jewish so I don’t know/care about these details and marquette is similarly competitive this season, so that also makes no sense.

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